Lacey speaks with golden sunrise collier, a multidisciplinary artist, facilitator, and radical recovery advocate. They talk about harm reduction, what the term "sober"means to them and their mutual problems with AA/12 Step. Golden shares about how isolating it can be when you don't feel like you belong in a particular recovery community and how important it is to have recovery spaces dedicated to Black, queer, trans people. He also tells us about SMART Recovery, what the program is like and what you can expect in meetings.
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Lacey: This is Sober Company, a podcast about modern sobriety and empowered recovery. My name is Lacey and today I speak to golden sunrise collier. He's a multi-disciplinary artist, facilitator and radical recovery advocate. golden has published several books and zines, including, "And Now My Watch Begins: Almost Six, Seven and Eight Years of Sobriety My Way AKA Staying Sober While Staying Woke", "The Audrey Lorde Harm Reduction Workbook", which I am going to crack open and do myself. There's a lot of really good questions in there and the time is right my friends! Also: "Of Self Blessing, QTBIPOC, Exploring Harm Reduction Beyond 12 Steps" and golden's currently accepting submissions for this. So I will link to their Instagram, etc. So you can direct message them about that. As well as "The Recovery Resource Mapping Guide".
[00:01:04] In this episode, golden and I talk about harm reduction and what the word sober means to us. golden tells us about the SMART Recovery program and what to expect at their meetings.
[00:01:13] He also talks about how isolating it can feel when you don't feel like you belong in a particular recovery community and how important it is to have recovery spaces dedicated to Black people and queer trans non-binary people. Also, a kind of trigger warning here, golden. and I talk a lot, A LOT about our different problems with AA, including some of its culture and language and its relationship with "outside issues". So if critique of AA is not your thing, I completely get it. Totally get it. So, but just wanted to give everyone a heads up about that.
[00:01:48] So all that to say, I hope you enjoy this episode with golden. Oh, P.S., P.P.S perhaps, it may not be totally clear at the top of the episode, but golden asked me if I consider myself sober, if I call myself sober...So yeah! Enjoy!
[00:02:03] golden: Do you think of yourself as sober. ? Do you identify as sober?
[00:02:08] Lacey: That's interesting. Yes. Um, but like my "sobriety date" is a day that I like emotionally feel like entered recovery, but I drank a couple of times after that. I was smoking weed after that for a full like year and a half after that. But like, that was when I fully put my foot on the path, you know? And I think, yeah, I think that very black and white thinking of you're either this way or that way is not, it's really limiting.
[00:02:43] golden: Yes. I agree.
[00:02:45] Lacey: What about, what about yourself?
[00:02:47] golden: I would say so, but I think only by my own definition.
[00:02:53] Lacey: Right.
[00:02:54] golden: There's definitely been times where I would say I've been sober, but maybe to other people by their criteria, I would not have been sober.
[00:03:04] But to me, I felt like I qualified for my own definition of like what it meant to not harm myself with substances.
[00:03:16] Lacey: Yes.
[00:03:18] golden: But then to other people, maybe they would be like, well, the rule is this. But according to of my own role. Yeah, I think so. And I think it's, I like the idea of what you're saying about that being your sobriety date, instead of like the date in which you like, get clean.
[00:03:36] Cause I feel like, um, I have my own precious day. But I feel like what I get to do what I need to do for me is pretty, pretty special and I don't really take it for granted too. I think you just people, I just like the people can decide. For me, I'm like, thats the biggest point is that everyone should get to decide what that means for them.
[00:04:03] Try and act like it's just like one way is bullshit and it doesn't help people. It actually totally crappy. And they're doing just fine.
[00:04:13] Lacey: Totally. Yeah. I think also, for instance, like when I was smoking weed, that was, you know, harm reduction. I didn't see it at the time. I was ashamed of it. You know, but that's what that was.
[00:04:25] I was taking care of myself actually. So I wouldn't drink, which was actually the thing that was worse for me.
[00:04:31] golden: Absolutely. And I think that, you know, that's so funny that you mentioned that because I feel like that whole thing about the set of rules that says that a person qualifies... here are the qualifiers for if you are in recovery or if you're sober or whatever. So often it's kind of like this thing, like either you're sober and then harm reduction is kind of like in that whole category, if you're not. And it's like, well, harm reduction is actually probably what most people can do. I don't think they actually, people abstaining from everything is the most realistic option for most people.
[00:05:06] A lot of people have to kind of figure out what works for them and what doesn't work. And while they're doing that, if they can do that the way that's the healthiest they can do it, that's great. I don't feel like that's less than what I'm doing, you know, or it takes less work. It takes work to figure out what works out for you.
[00:05:23] Lacey: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I still am trying to get someone to come on here and talk about harm reduction.
[00:05:32] golden: Oh dude, honestly, I'm not like a person who works at a harm reduction place, but that's, I talk about this shit all the time. I fucking love harm reduction! There's just like it's so, uh, it's so meaningful.
[00:05:46] It's so meaningful because just completely... with anything... I think with sobriety is one thing, but like behavior change in general is just really difficult. It's not something that most people can just say, "I'm going to stop doing this right now. That's it." And when people do that kind of shit, a lot of times they can't do it.
[00:06:03] It takes time to change a person's behavior. Even when someone wants to change it, it takes time. And in the meantime, while they're doing that, I think just practicing harm reduction, while they figure out if they actually do want to stop completely doing the thing. Like there's some people, you know, it's like relationships or food or whatever it is.
[00:06:21] It's like, having to have this standard that's completely absolute. "I will stop a hundred percent." Its fine. That's a noble standard if that's what you want, but if you can just do it less, that's also great. If I can just hang around people who make me feel like shit a little less, I can talk to myself a little kinder if I can.
[00:06:44] That's actually really beautiful. It has a lot of merit and should be celebrated. It's not something that's kind of like this thing to be rolled eyes at or something. I think it's actually helpful.
[00:06:55] Lacey: Yeah. It's gentle. I think there is this 12 step model thats obviously patriarchical and it has these strict guidelines.
[00:07:08] And if you get out of that at all, it's like, you're slapped or you're not this, you're not that. And I think that gentleness, you know, is more humane and it's actually how people can recover, you know? Especially a lot of people that don't... we just might as well get into it... that the patriarchy is harming them. Which I think is everybody honestly.
[00:07:35] golden: Oh, definitely. (laughter) There is no harm free zones in the patriarchy I'm afraid.
[00:07:44] Yeah, I mean, I think that was something that was hard for me when I first got sober. I felt like 12 step meetings almost reminded me of like, when I was 15 or 16, I started practicing Christianity. Like I chose to. Because forgiveness and these other qualities that I was like, "oh yes, that's beautiful".
[00:08:06] And when I would go to 12 step meetings, the way that people kind of would wield the fear of relapse to me felt like youth group. Particularly the ways in which people would say things like. "this is the one way, this is the one ordained way, the one Holy path". And should you stray from it, you are going to hell. "You will go to hell if you step off this path".
[00:08:30] There's only one way, you know, and this, this is the way, you know, and if it doesn't work for you, it's because you're not trying hard enough. And I just remember thinking how, think this is for me. I'm trying pretty hard. I felt skeptical of it cause I was just like, anything that says is the one way I'm going to feel some skepticism about after that experience of practicing Christianity.
[00:08:57] And eventually I ended up, um, kind of transitioning away from that in my twenties. But once I left that experience, I was like, anything that's trying to say it is the only way, to me that feels. hegemonic in this kind of way that's not helpful for people, um, or I'm going to be suspicious of it. If it proclaims itself, the only way. If everyone just decides that's the best way great.
[00:09:21] Lacey: Yeah.
[00:09:22] golden: Probably was never going to happen.
[00:09:24] Lacey: Well, that's wise. I mean, I think it got me in the beginning. I didn't really ever do it. I was like, I'm just going to go it alone . But I had shame around it. Cause I had shame over the addiction. So when someone's telling you that it's this way or the highway, or you're like, you're the liar and the problem and ...whats that phrase they use about like people who can't recover or are incapable of being honest with themselves? Is that that's the line?
[00:09:52] golden: And character defects. There's a whole bunch of, a litany of things that's wrong with me or shit don't work.
[00:09:59] Lacey: I know. Yeah. And so I now can see all that very clearly, but at that time when you're feeling really low and shameful about what you're going through... and I didn't have the understanding now of where addiction actually comes from, you know, it's, uh, It's hard not to feel like shit for someone telling you you're not doing it the right way and then not wanting to do it that way.
[00:10:25] golden: And I think AA is just so much more...any kind of 12 step process is just so ubiquitous. I mean, any setting in which you need to recover... it's almost like a trope. Like you're going to go to a 12 step meeting. Its like you gamble too much go to a 12 step meeting. Its the, um, kind of clinical go-to in most settings.
[00:10:46] And in most places, it's kind of the meeting if you want to try to do something through a meeting format, you're probably mostly just looking to find AA meetings. You may be able to find some other programs, but generally speaking, it's kind of the one, I mean all over the world its like that. So it's very difficult to even... it has a solution like, well, it's the biggest one it must be the one that's the most successful. It must be the most helpful one. And I think that actually does a lot of harm to people because there's so many people who it really isn't good fit for, but I think there is a lot of shame that it's kind of like, you know, its like "keep coming back it works".
[00:11:21] It doesn't actually fit everyone. I remember I tried to find more community and other meetings and stuff for a long time, cause I could never do it either. I tried to do it. I really was like, this is it. I have to start to make it work. And I was like I can't, it's too depressing. It doesn't feel right. It's like, this is not good for me.
[00:11:42] So I just didn't end up doing any of the steps. And I wish that there had been like more options or I had more community around it . But, yeah, I just alone myself too, for a long time, for years and years, and I really wanted it because I felt like every city I would go to, I could go to an AA meeting. If it worked for me it was everywhere. But it hurt my feelings, that it was everywhere and I couldn't get into it. I couldn't make myself like it or use it. Well, it, it bothered me. I was like, I really need some people in my life who are doing this, but I can't do this. I can't work this particular thing. So.
[00:12:24] Lacey: I think in some way, you know, with the pandemic and the zoom meetings, it's really, you know, just kind of the meetings that you're creating and other people are creating that are accessible to other identities and life experiences and race and gender. And you know...
[00:12:42] That that's really been a boon for people in recovery is this access, right? Is, is to these meeting spaces where you're saying like, you could go all over the country and physically go to, find a meeting at any hour of the day that's AA, but now you can almost do that with zoom through these online meetings, which is pretty incredible. And I think it's gonna, that's gonna stick, you know, that's not going away after we can be out in public. You know?
[00:13:15] golden: Yeah. Well, I hope so. I, I, um, the only program I ever would work with some regularity at some point around year, like six or seven was SMART recovery. SMART always had like phone meetings and video meetings, you know, it was like a part of it.
[00:13:33] I always really liked that because I was like, yeah, there's not that many in-person meetings, so you get a choice. But I think that was probably. The isolation, I would feel not only did like the program itself, I don't like kind of youth groupie and One Holy Path things about AA didn't work for me, the whole admitting I was powerless shit didn't work for me. There's a bunch of parts that I was like, Nope! I don't think so. But what really didn't work for me? Probably the most of all for any kind of any meeting I've gone to, is just having to be around white people all the time. And, um, trauma. Uh, racial trauma around white people in these settings who are just saying the most disgusting things with no filter or no like sense of, um, you know, awareness about like,...
[00:14:25] I'd be in a room when I first moved to Philadelphia, I went to a meeting. This was last year. I went to a meeting, um, that was at the Shambala Center, the Heart of Shambala. The Heart of Shambala is a recovery format, but it's basically 12 step, but it's just meditate during it and stuff, it's just basically 12 step with some Buddhism and, um, all the people were white and it's in West Philadelphia, which is a neighborhood I live in. Particuraly. I live in it because it's a Black neighborhood and I'm Black and I like being around Black people. I prefer it. I grew up around mostly Black people. Oh, the whole meeting is white and its 40 something people. And I'm just sitting there and just being filled with one a sense of kind of like, you know, just fed up, just feeling really fed up and enraged.
[00:15:14] And it's so common for me to go into these spaces and have to put up with this to be the only person that's here. This is in a, a fucking Black neighborhood.
[00:15:23] Lacey: Yeah.
[00:15:24] golden: And everyone here is white and they all get to pretend that's fucking normal because that's how the recovery world is: pretending that that shit is normal.
[00:15:34] No one even notices. In fact, they're like, "Oh! Welcome! Look! Our meeting is diverse because you are here. It's like, I just thought how fucked up and unfair is this for people to have to deal with? You know, I'm like what seven years sober at that point? You know, and I have found my own kind of community, but were I just coming into things again...
[00:15:56] That really bothered me a lot. Like just being around super... the combined compulsory, almost like people assume you're heterosexual. They assume you're cisgender. They assume, you know, that you look white, you are white, or like, you're welcome. We want to diversify our meeting and include you. And I'm like, I don't want to be fucking included.
[00:16:15] In fact, I'd rather have meeting space where I didn't have to be, uh, you know, where it was for me. Not that I get included in your meeting.
[00:16:24] Lacey: Right.
[00:16:25] golden: And then when I was trying to talk about these things that bothered me in my recovery, things I had to cope with that were really triggering to me and really fucked up to me. And part of the reason I had to drink or felt like I needed to cope by drinking. So including like racism and transphobia and all these other things and just have people just, it was like I said, I was from Mars and, um, Or people get upset and say, "That's an outside issue. We're all in this together. We're all alcoholics"... fucking, you know, snap out of it. You know, "you're bringing in outside issues" and it was like, it's an outside issue to you.
[00:17:02] Lacey: Yeah. Yup.
[00:17:03]golden: It's not even an outside issue to you. It's actually a part of your life too, you know? And, um, I got so sick of going through that meeting after meeting, after meeting.
[00:17:12] Yeah, I'm still, it still makes me fucking sick. I can't stand it. I don't like it. I think it's really harmful to people. I think it's very, very harmful. So I'm really glad to see finally, like more meeting spaces, more people talking about it and stuff like that, because for a long time, I just like..
[00:17:29]Lacey: Yeah, no, I mean, racism and transphobia causes addiction right. So if you're trying to work and get healthy and. And you're going into spaces where you're experiencing it and experiencing trauma it's not gonna, you're not being helped on your path. Right. So, yeah.
[00:17:50] golden: Totally. Yeah, no, totally. Oh man. So many times, I mean, yeah. And it didn't really matter. I would go to like AA meetings, I would go to 12 step. I would go to Refuge Recovery back when it was that I would go to Refuge Dharma once they changed the name, Moderation Management, SMART Recovery, Life Ring. I tried the Eightfold Path, you know, Vimalasara's program, and I talked to Vimalasara. But I just, it, the same kind of things would just keep showing up.
[00:18:22] And I was like, this needs to change. So that people and communities that deserve this, this isn't just for white people. And it's not just for straight people. It's not just heterosexual people. And that needs to get broken open so that more people have access to it. And that the role of like white supremacy and denying people opportunities to heal is exposed.
[00:18:47] Um, because it's like you almost just don't talk about it. We're all here for, you know, recovery. Recovery is the thing, we're not gonna talk about the other shit. And it's like, that's my life.
[00:18:56] Lacey: Right, right.
[00:18:58] golden: That's exactly what I need to talk about, its why I came to this meeting.
[00:19:01] Lacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard, well, I don't need to talk about that, but like yeah, it's, it's a revolutionary notion for people and it's clear that the white supremacy of those rooms...how baked in it is, this whole notion of it's you're... what is it? Like "unique personality" or whatever they call it?
[00:19:22] golden: Or like "addict mind". I mean, there's so many of these nasty phrases in there.
[00:19:30] Lacey: They just throw at you whenever you say you have experienced a real trauma, it means, oh, you know, you need to work on your, um, "amends" or your, um, resentments or, you know, it's always kind of going back to victim blaming and, you know, I can feel that like this much, this little bit, so, um, yeah.
[00:19:58]golden: That was the thing that really bothered me too. I'm so glad you brought that up because I feel like something that really bothered me about... so when I first stopped drinking, I had a therapist who helped me do that and a partner who helped me do that. And I didn't know if my therapist was also a 12 step person and that became clear the longer I worked with her and, uh, shout out to Wendy! Wherever you are. She's lovely person.
[00:20:25] But she was like, you've got to go to a hundred meetings in a hundred days. That's how, you know, you know, you gotta get it done. And so I tried to do that and immediately was like, I can't do that. I go into these rooms and they're like, "great, welcome newcomer!" first thing you need to do is admit that you have no power.
[00:20:41] You are powerless. If you had any power, you could have overcome this on your own. You couldn't and that's why you're here. I was like, no, I actually have a lot of power, I have a lot of personal power actually. And I have a lot of power from my communities. A lot of power from my ancestors, I'm rich with power, actually.
[00:20:59] I'm just trying to heal, but I'm not here because of that. Two. I always felt like the Big Book... I was like, when I would read that shit... Toni Morrison talks about when she would read before she started writing, when she was younger, she would read, when she was a kid and a young person, she would read these, you know, adventure novels, or, you know, lots of the literature when she's growing up.
[00:21:22] You could feel the address of this kind of invisible white male, like reader. Like you could feel that they were not talking to you, but kind of past and around you. And I always felt that way when I tried to read the Big Book, I was like, I don't know why this program is still using this book.
[00:21:37] This is like so old and outdated. The language is kind of fucked up. I just feel like this is not ...why is this being treated like this like holy tome, which one got from some holy mountain out of a cloud or something? This program needs to like update. But I also fundamentally disagreed with this idea that I needed to make it about me.
[00:21:56] Of course, my recovery is personal. Of course me healing is personal and it has to do with my personal life, but it's not actually the things that I am recovering from. I could stop drinking, but the things that are causing me harm and causing people like me harm are systematic. They're huge. They're ancient.
[00:22:18] And people who are not experiencing the things, are benefiting from those things, as I am benefiting from the things that I have privileges in- those things need to be addressed by these programs, by this program. And I was like, people like you have to call yourself, you know... one of the last straws was with people being like, hi, I'm so-and-so, I'm an addict and alcoholic.
[00:22:39] And I just feel like, as a person who literally this country started a war, which has like killed people in my family, which right now people in my family are incarcerated by, which has just destroyed neighborhoods, murdered people- about drugs. I'm not interested in calling myself that. That label doesn't do anything for me.
[00:23:02] And people are like, well, if you don't say it and that's just, you're like, "that's just your disease, thats your disease talking, and you can't humble yourself." And I'm like, it's not my disease. First of all. It's simply that I don't need to call myself that to realize that there's something I want to work on in my life.
[00:23:22] And if that, for you, as like a white person, does something for you to call yourself an alcoholic or an addict. That's cool. Whoever that does something for, that's fine. For me personally, that's not my word for what I'm dealing with. That whole idea of it just being my personal problem is each one of our personal struggles, that if I could heal my addict mind, it's like, no, if capitalism could end, if the brutal anti-Black exploitation of people could end , if people could like not have to work themselves to fucking death.
[00:23:52] I think you would do a lot for recovery then just sitting here and making it about people's strengths or willpower because people are up against a lot and are coping with a lot. And therefore trying to medicate a lot to deal, not to mention that like a lot of these substances and shit have been weaponized against communities, indigenous people, Black people, is not, I mean, it is personal, but it's much bigger than just my own personal character.
[00:24:17] It's ridiculous.
[00:24:18] Lacey: Yeah. Have you read this book that is blowing my mind right now. It's called, um, okay... Many... I'm going to look it up. Excuse me.
[00:24:33] It's called Many Roads One Journey and it's by Charlotte Kasl. And it was written in 1992. And it says exactly what you just said.
[00:24:51] golden: Oh snap.
[00:24:53]Lacey: I'm like, where has this person been all my life? I'm actually doing a reading with it. and we're going to do a podcast episode with my friend Valentine, but it's..
[00:25:04] It's so empowering to see it written down. And the fact that it was written so fucking long ago and the writer is so hopeful in it, like, Oh, we're going to turn ..., oh we're gonna turn this around. And you know, and I'm like, Oh, you know, we're barely starting it now.
[00:25:28] Right. This conversation. I still feel like I have to hide with people from torches. If you say anything against AA, right?
[00:25:35] golden: Hell yeah. That's shits not a joke. Its not a game at all.
[00:25:40] Lacey: Ya know, like I want people to listen to this podcast, like it doesn't... and I feel like I have to tread that lightly, you know, to a certain degree.
[00:25:50] And of course we always have to say, "if it works for you, great, we're not taking it away. We are not taking this away from you." I think there's a lot of fear because people owe their sobriety to it. That's great. But that doesn't ... it's this idea that it works....if it works for everybody. And if it doesn't work for you, it's your problem.
[00:26:08] And the fact that all courts, all hospitals, all rehabs, all of it, send people into this program that are making people sicker and telling them it's their fault for feeling that way. It's just, it's sick and kind of, I'm kind of having this own new understanding of my own "codependency". Which I... my therapist, has never allowed me to use, doesn't want to use that word, really never lets it into the space.
[00:26:40] And I'm now through this book, understanding why, because she calls "codependency" or internalized oppression from a patriarchical, you know, upbringing. So, it's... pretty thick and I've only gotten through like 80 pages of it, but so far, I'm just like, it's really inspiring.
[00:27:06] So there's, it's just exciting to find other people out there who are doing this work and saying this stuff.
[00:27:13] golden: Absolutely. It's huge. It makes a big difference. And at some point when I... So for years and years, I just kept trying to go by day. I just periodically, you know, a few times a year "ok, I can do this. I can make it happen. I can make it work. I've just gotta find the right meeting and then I can just figure it out". And, uh, and then I would get my heartbroken and leave and, you know, go and say, Oh, I'll never, you know, find my people or whatever. And, um, finally around year five or something, I was like, "fuck this". I just wrote this...
[00:27:47] I went to LA Zine Fest and probably two or three nights before I just wrote down all these thoughts I was thinking about, you know, just how, like, why I don't want to call myself... I don't feel like it's right to force people to say that they're addicts or alcoholics and how, you know, it's really hard for me.
[00:28:03] Like that was right before this last election. And I was like, it's really hard to see all of these kinds of extra judicial killings of Black people on the news all the time, that kind of stuff fucks with my recovery. But when I try and bring that kind of shit into the rooms, people are like, *shocked gasp* you know, or trying to basically like, make me feel like that's not something that should have anything to do with my recovery.
[00:28:25] When of course it is. And, um, so I wrote this shit. In this zine and I brought it to LA Zine Fest and it was riotous. Like there were a few people who were like, "wow, that's amazing,this is so great" But overall, I would say a lot of really intense, hostile reactions from these kind of these fundamentalists AA people.
[00:28:49] And honestly, over the years, I've gotten shoving matches at shows about it. when I would have my shit on the table, because people read it and they would just be like, Who the fuck do you think you are? How dare you say anything about this fucking program? This program saved my life. People swiped all of my shit off my table.
[00:29:05] Lacey: Gasp
[00:29:05] golden: I mean, like physically try to fight me, threaten me. And it's that thing you're saying, you know, the people with the torches, it's kind of a funny thing to say, but it's actually kind of real. I think people get really up in arms about having this thing that's very tender to them critiqued, but I think part of that is the kind of reaction of any people who are not used to having something critiqued that needs critique, but had some kind of like guard built up against having a critique publicly.
[00:29:39] I think you see that kind of reaction with like, you know, uh, critiques of whiteness, critiques of anything that's kind of got this kind of invisible normalcy attached to it. And someone says, huh, that's not actually... that that's not, yeah, that exists. That's not, um, that's not actually, you know, that might not be the right way.
[00:29:59] And people are like what the fuck? You know, I think that's kind of how it is at first. And hopefully after a while of just people keep doing, keep doing it, it will change. But I've definitely had some of that, I call it that fundamentalist kind of hardliner reaction where people get quite aggressive about being like, you know, who the fuck do you think you are? Why would you critique this program? This program saved my life. It's amazing. You're just in your disease. You're fucked up and like being really forceful about it. And when I wrote that zine, I was like, I really don't want to get in a fight with anybody about this, but I had already felt like in the opening... I was like, "and I don't want to fight anybody about this. This is just my opinion." I feel like I had to do that because I had already had that kind of thing happened in meetings where people were like, This is the line and everyone in here needs to be on the same fucking page about this. And we're not gonna we'll talk about that other thing.
[00:30:58] Lacey: What is that zine? What is it called? Where can people find it?
[00:31:03] golden: Yeah. Yeah. Ok, so I'm a huge Game of Thrones nerd or I was, before the eighth season, so they're called, uh, And Now My Watch Begins. Which I don't know if you watch Game of Thrones but...
[00:31:16] Lacey: Yeah yeah yeah
[00:31:17] golden: And the zine series is called And Now My Watch Begins and it's like Five Years of, um, Staying Sober While Staying Woke, AKA Sobriety My Way. And in there, the first one... there's like me just being an introduction to me like, Hey, just so you know, this is not me trying to say what anybody else's thing should be like, I'm going to criticize AA. But that's not saying people shouldn't use AA.
[00:31:43] It's just, it doesn't really work that well for me. And I have problems with some of the framework. This is me saying that I also, at that time, like I used marijuana, medical, marijuana as a part of my, um, sobriety journey. It just helps with my anxiety and stuff like that. And I know that's very controversial to people.
[00:31:59] But just putting it out there and feeling like I had to say those things to just be like, I don't want to fight. I don't want to get into some big thing about this, but just so you know, like really having to be like, okay, yeah. You know, which is sad. I think to have to do that shows there's kind of something not quite right.
[00:32:18] Lacey: Right, right. I know, if you have to like, kind of bow and be like, no, no, no. Um, yeah.
[00:32:24] Yeah, I felt like when I got sober, you know it's like the Irish Catholic thing in my family. And AA is like right up there with, um, you know, the one true God and faith. Um, but that was like, part of, it was like, I had to kind of quote unquote, come out as sober, but I had to also kind of like come out as not using AA, you know?
[00:32:55] Like, this is not working for me. But luckily it hasn't been very, uh, you know, I'm kind of showing them how successful it is. That was kind of a big part of my journey was having to deal with that part of it. And also the fact that it, everything that's outside of it, we have to label it like alternative recovery.
[00:33:21] Like what we're doing, isn't normal.
[00:33:27] golden: Right.
[00:33:28] Lacey: And everything has to gesticulate to that tradition.
[00:33:34] golden: Right. Or it's treated like a reference somehow.
[00:33:37] Lacey: Yeah. It always has to be part of the conversation.
[00:33:40] golden: Right. Or people will even be like, Oh, so you you're sober. Cool. Like, just assume that I'm then using AA and I don't blame them for thinking that because why wouldn't they think that.
[00:33:51] Because of it's, it's kind of use everywhere, you know, and it's, um, a treatment as like a cure all or the default almost. Yeah. I really, I really am looking forward to the day when that changes and I think slowly but surely, hopefully it will come, but I mean, it's also kind of one of those strange things too, where I don't really understand from a leadership perspective...
[00:34:18] like whenever this last uprising was happening... I remember being like what I would like to see from that program... I'm not sure how it's run internationally or at its highest leadership levels are on it... I feel like it's kind of opaque how it's run but I feel like that particular program gets so many resources in terms of places to have meetings in terms of the work and labor that it gets from people through service to perpetuate itself.
[00:34:47] There needs to be some acknowledgement from that particular program of its use, I think, in harming people. Basically, I just, I would like to see in addition to there being more options for people, a kind of break down, more transparency from AA about the divestment of the, the infinite amount of resources that get funneled to it as the default, like cure all.
[00:35:15] And I'm not really sure how it works, but they are seen as the program thats defaulted to by the military, hospitals, by most of the medical industry, and I don't really understand why that is. And I feel like that program... the righteous thing to do would be for the leadership of that program to really recognize that program's role in kind of strangling out diverse space for more conversation about what is possible.
[00:35:47] But I don't know when that's going to happen. I don't even, I don't really even understand how that program is kind of run at a higher level, but.
[00:35:56] Lacey: Yeah, no, I know. I think again with this book, Many...I still can't think of it. What is it? It does not. It's one of those names... Many Roads One Journey... I'm like is it many journeys, one road??
[00:36:14] Um, again, this book is very, you know, cis-centered, white-centered. It was written in 1992. So giving it that kind of... having that understanding. It does talk... like if people go back... like Jesus, right. If you go back to what Jesus was saying, it's pretty fucking cool. Right? Love, love people. You know, compassion.
[00:36:39] If you go back to Bill, what Bill Wilson was saying, I mean, forget some of that bullshit, but like just some of the, like, he was a lot more kind of open to like what cures people then, as opposed to what you may think from reading the book, you know, he was trying psychedelics, he, you know, like he was a lot, a little bit more like fluid than what you may think from the people who are totally like following everything that he said.
[00:37:09] golden: That doesn't surprise me. I feel like that makes sense. But there's a way in which he's kind of like deified too, that I think is unhelpful within program that I'm like, you know, this isn't that helpful. Like making this book some kind of untouchable thing, treating it, like it's the Bible. Like you can't question it and then treating this person as though he's not just a person who wrote something at a time that's very different than this time.
[00:37:36] And you're still using this text. Unchanged almost in a way that implies that we haven't learned more about the way the mind works, how people heal from things. It's not really responsible, but at the same time, I'm like, you know, if it works for people, that's beautiful.
[00:37:59] I just think that is, is what I have a problem with. The program can say whatever it wants and do whatever it wants. My problem is with the assertion that it is the true way.
[00:38:11] Lacey: Right.
[00:38:11] golden: And that anything else is kind of a bit beyond the pale. Like its ok but...
[00:38:17] Lacey: ...we'll allow you to have your little thing.
[00:38:20] golden: Yeah. I mean yeah, sure. If you want to try this other thing, that's fine. But yeah, the more tools people have, and especially, I feel like people who are, um, kind of marginalized in some kind of way, I think that our own personal experience is really powerful. You know, and as opposed to something, being an outside issue, you know, my like Blackness or any kind of other identity, my trans-ness, whatever, being considered some kind of outside issue...
[00:38:51] I actually think that there's so much power in my culture as a Black person, theres so much power in my lineage as a trans person, as a queer person, that gives me tools. And, um, kind of examples from history, of resilience and creative resilience. That aid me in my recovery, that I can use. And I think it's, um, looking at kind of the healing and harm reduction work as something that's that can be strength-based.
[00:39:23] It doesn't need to be something where you say, Oh, I have to give up all my personal power. I have no personal power. It's like, no, what personal power do you have? And how can it aid you? Cause you have a lot.
[00:39:33] Lacey: Yeah.
[00:39:33] golden: Let's take an assessment of what all, you know, what you have going for you. You're not just some person who's completely broken with nothing.
[00:39:42] Every person I think has so much, so many resources within themselves within their friendships and relationships in their communities. More than they think a lot of times, to really try to think about what can aid them, you know, what is there for them to use to help them craft this kind of path.
[00:40:00] Because it doesn't have to be one way and we all have those, those strengths, many, many, many, many of us have those strengths. And it's not something that needs to be something where you have to depend on, you know, even a higher power. I think all of that stuff is kind of not necessary unless you want that.
[00:40:17] Um, I think it's, it's important for people to, you know, to, uh, I don't know, look at what they do have with what they have going on and what they have to support them their lives and in their, in their lineages and in their communities, because there's a lot there usually, you know, there's something.
[00:40:39] Lacey: Yeah. I, um, I know, I think through my addiction, and also just through socialization, I learned not to trust myself and even the things that I find really pleasurable, enjoyable. I distrust them to a certain extent. I mean, I'm, I'm unlearning this now, as part of my recovery. And that, you know, those are the things that will help you and support you in your recovery. I think the things that you feel good about in your body, you know, I think we learned to distrust our body a little bit in addiction, you know? And also from the messages we receive from the outside world. I think it's, it's kind of going back and learning to trust yourself and that's been a huge, huge part of my recovery.
[00:41:30] Can you talk about what your recovery looks like? Like how you support yourself?
[00:41:36] golden: Absolutely. Um, so yeah, there's a way that not having access to necessarily 12 step really did some harm. You know, in terms of feeling isolated in my recovery early on, and feeling like I just couldn't make it work for me.
[00:41:58] But in some ways, once I stuck through it, I also feel like my program, you know, quote unquote has really consisted of the kind of range of like healing modalities and activities and other tools at this point that just helped me focus on like what's beautiful or what's true or adaptive or good in my life.
[00:42:17] And in my family and the world. And I think at this point... it's funny because during COVID a lot of these things like I have, I think my program would normally consist of in any kind of sense of regular time. But some of the things that are certainly a part of my own personal program. One is like meditation. Um, I've been a meditation practitioner for probably about 15, 16 years now, at least.
[00:42:42] And, um, for a long time I lived in California. I had a people of color meditation community that I was a part of at a very amazing meditation center called East Bay Meditation Center. Shout out.
[00:42:52] Lacey: Oh yeah I love East Bay
[00:42:55] golden: They're fantastic. Fantastic. That was my home group for a long time for meditating. I think activism and creativity are a big part of my program and putting my creativity and kind of intellect into service to support the justice and healing that I want to see in the world, uh, has been really crucial to combating this sense of hopelessness and inefficacy that is so, um, so much a part of what I was coping with, trying to cope with when I was drinking, just this feeling goddamn look at the world. Wow.
[00:43:29] Like so much pain, so much suffering. And I feel so hopeless. What can I do about it? I think trying to spend quality time with myself and time where I'm just sitting with myself, being honest with myself, learning how to be kind to myself, friendly to myself, and also spending quality time, like assessing my relationships... paying attention to what relationships help my spirit rise, I guess, as you'd say and which ones are really not feeling that good or that at home for me. And why is that? And being assertive. I feel like that's a huge part of my program ...once I stopped drinking, realizing that I needed to get acquainted with myself in a major way and developing the courage to just kind of honestly look at what I wanted and be willing to live and express the truth of what I wanted it in the world.
[00:44:22] In a way that will let people exercise consent, whether they want to be part of that or not. And just trust my truth to light my chosen family's path, uh, to me, um, and releasing the illusion that I control others or life in any way. Like I tell you now I'm just, yeah, but everybody gets to choose, you know, and along with those people, I also get to choose.
[00:44:48] How I use my singular precious kind of finite energy on earth. So, you know, I get to choose, they get to choose and we're all learning and choosing and growing. And, uh, it gives me the power to relinquish the fantasy that I, by behaving a certain way that I can guarantee a particular outcome, but that I do get to choose. I do get to choose.
[00:45:13] Lacey: That's beautiful. Everything you just said. Beautiful. I love how you said you're lighting the way for your chosen family members to find you. That's just a stunning way of putting it. Very visual.
[00:45:28] golden: Oh, thank you. Yeah. That's, that's definitely how I feel. I feel like it's just, you know, when I know, I feel like I'm being myself and when I'm being myself in a way that's, um, being like loving towards myself, I'm just letting myself be whoever I am. That's the only way they can find me! You know, otherwise, when I broadcast from my actual location, I send my beacon of my actual location. That's actually the only way they can find me.
[00:45:56] So it just serves me. It's less energy than, than trying to broadcast from a location that I'm not actually inhabiting -my actual location is easier to broadcast from.
[00:46:05]Lacey: That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:09] golden: And of course I do go to meetings sometimes. But I think at this point I've been in so many bad meetings and I leave so frustrated that at this point, I'm just more interested in like starting spaces and helping support people to start spaces than I am in trying to make meetings work for me necessarily.
[00:46:28] Lacey: Totally. So are you leading any meetings right now or creating any meetings now?
[00:46:34]golden: Yes. I'm actually in the process right now of creating, I've been stuck on creating this meaning for a while, because I'm at a cross points where I'm deciding whether the meeting...
[00:46:43] well, at first I was like, I'd like to have a SMART meeting cause that's, that's the program I like to use, but then I thought, well, I don't really need to have any program be a part of it, it could just be kind of like a meeting where we just talk and there's no program attached to it. So there was that decision point and another pivoting point was whether I should make the meeting, a meeting for Black people or meeting for Black, indigenous, people of color.
[00:47:07] And that's been a very hard decision because I think there are so few, um, I mean, there's very few queer trans people of color meetings at all anyway. That's a rare kind of meeting at this point. Hopefully that will change. I think that is changing. But I also think there is even less meetings where it's just Black people and it's outside of 12 step.
[00:47:27] And I think there is something very healing about having spaces that are just.. particularly Black meetings, that are centering queer and trans people. Um, and are not 12 step meetings. Because I used to go to 12 step meetings that were all Black and I would be like, I don't feel comfortable in here! Technically I'm with all Black people, but I just feel like oh boy, you know. So I'm really stuck in that place. Um, trying to decide which way to go on that one. Maybe there's somewhere I can find a way to do both, but I think I'm definitely planning on, uh, starting to lead a few meetings before the end of the year because I just think the more meetings, the better.
[00:48:05] It would be a fantasy of mine to have like every night of a week a different meeting I could go to that was... just where I got to be around other queer trans people of color, Black people. And, um, that wasn't requiring that I use 12 steps and it wasn't really, I don't think that I need to go to a meeting with 12 steps not allowed it's just... where it's not centered as ...again, anything that's going to be centered as this path must work for you I'm not interested in that shit at all.
[00:48:31] Lacey: Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally see that. And I will be linking to like all of your stuff at the end and kind of sending people your way. And also, I know you're doing... an accomplish... Okay. This is another word I have a problem with. Is it accomplished accomplice...
[00:48:54] golden: Accompliceship? It's hard! Cuz the ss and shhh kind of fit. It's almost like you're saying "accomplisip" it's hard. It's accomplice- ship. It doesn't really blend. Yeah.
[00:49:14] Lacey: So I will be linking towards that. So it's white folks like me who want to, you know, support the good work you're doing or anybody, honestly, you know, obviously I don't think you're... I doubt you're refusing money? But you know, I think white people, especially can send some money. Um, what else? I know you're an artist, you're a printmaker and you're a filmmaker, right?
[00:49:37] golden: Yeah.
[00:49:38] Lacey: Yeah. Tell me about that. What is your, um, you're doing the zines and I went, I, it's still hard for me to say, that I'm an artist, but I guess I'm an artist too. I went to art school and I'm trying to dig that well back open. Um, I've kind of put a lot of dirt over it, but, um, yeah. So I just, I just love to hear about your practice and, and what you make.
[00:50:02] golden: Yeah. I make a lot of different stuff. I, I feel like, um, I mean, I feel like if you went to art school, then you're the artist with the big A.
[00:50:11] Lacey: You've got to make shit to be an artist!
[00:50:19] golden: Um, yeah, I think that you know, art and creativity are a huge part of what keeps me... like my coping, you know, and I think, um, At this point, I do a lot of different things.
[00:50:31] And I don't know if I would say it's part of an art practice I feel like I'm just a creative person. It took me a long time to say, I feel comfortable saying I was an artist. I think there's a lot of, kind of pressure around that for people. There are some people who are like Oh yes, I'm an artist.
[00:50:46] And they say it with no kind of feeling, but for me, whatever, I would say, I would just like, I want to shrink into a pocket somewhere and just like, don't look at me, you know,
[00:50:55] Lacey: I feel you, yeah.
[00:50:57]golden: In terms of just my creative work, I really, um, for a long time, I was a metal smith, a jewelry metal smith.
[00:51:03] So I liked to make jewelry and rings and necklaces. And I like to crochet. I play a bunch of instruments. I play the guitar and the viola and the banjo and my room is full of like glockenspiels and xylophones and harmoniums. And then theres the little thing, that's like the keyboard that you blow into...
[00:51:26] and I'm forgetting its name. And, uh, and yeah, and so I play music and I do a lot of movement and dance. That's been something that's been really hard for me to not have access to as much during pandemic. I mean, I could take dance classes over the internet, but it's not the same, you know, it's not the same.
[00:51:47] Um, am I, where I have to practice is so small, I can't really move and I'm big, you know, I'm six feet tall. So I, I really like movement and, um, yeah, I'm making a film, I'm a documentary film fellow at Scribe Video Center. Which was started by this dude named Louis Massiah who won the MacArthur Genius Grant.
[00:52:04] And he's pretty amazing. Shout out Louis Messiah. In West Philadelphia. And I'm making a series of short films about Black non binary people and just kind of the, the wisdom and beauty of people kind of living this kind of, in an expansive gender. And the tools that people have to... I think when you're a Black person and you realize that what's being handed to you and called like here, this is what being Black means, whatever people hand you and they say that to you -generally is bullshit. It's bullshit. And it's meant to like, bury you, it's like, you know, this is what being Black means- it means being criminal. It means being, you know, less than human being, not that intelligent. It means being all these really harmful things. And so you kind of have to figure out what it means for you.
[00:52:56] You have to do the work of self-definition. It's like crucial for you to do that so that you can know what it is for you. And I think a lot of Black nonbinary people are bringing those same kind of self- definition tools to their work as people living in expansive gender and nonbinary is just so open. It's like, I've put out this book of some of the interviews and it's like, people are just like, yes, you know, he, she ,they, ze, you know, it's like the people, its so expansive. You could pretty much say whatever you want. And it's true. You know, it's like nonbinary is not like any kind of binary, trans identity.
[00:53:33] It's, it's huge. People are doing so much with it. It's really interesting. And so I'm making a bunch of, short films about that. Yeah. And I like to sing and, and honestly, and of course my printmaker, I'm a member of, um, The Soapbox Community Print Shop here in West Philadelphia. Um, shout out, Soapbox and, um, great place if you're in Philadelphia. Great, great place to go and make work, very affordable, great community center. So I, I like to do all of those things, but honestly, sometimes people are like, why don't you just choose one? But to me they're more beautiful. They all are... in tandem, that is what I like to do. It makes more sense.
[00:54:19] It's hard for me to be like, let me just choose one of them and focus on that. I think that they actually make all the rest of them more interesting. They're like my like paramoures or something. And I go back and forth between all of them all the time and they remind me of each other and I'm so in love with all of them.
[00:54:37] And I could never leave any of them. I just, just with all of them. And so, um, yeah, those are some of the things I do as a creative person. And play. I think I take play very seriously. And so I find, I try to find ways to do that. But again, the pandemic has really just been a big bummer for some of those things.
[00:54:55] In terms of doing things with my community, but yeah, my practice is pretty important to my sobriety. I feel like without the things it would be hard. It would be much, much harder I think.
[00:55:07] Lacey: Yeah, for sure. I love what you said about how your different mediums, I will just say mediums because its the easiest word to use ,are all kind of speaking to each other? You know? Like they all have a relation, like you have a relationship with them, but they all have a relationship to each other. Right. And when I went to that school, I was forced to, they would force you to choose one medium. And I refused and, or I didn't refuse... I kind of sheepishly didn't...and got away with doing other, you know... if I wanted to talk about an idea, I chose the thing that I thought would, you know, kind of interpret that idea in the most successful way.
[00:55:50] I just love how you're kind of allowing that expansiveness. And, um, it sounds like a lot of joy, which is certainly helpful with sobriety and recovery.
[00:56:05] golden: Yeah. I felt really sad when I hear things like that. I mean, I think that's part of the thing about going to universities in general, you know, is that they really do kind of force people to, at this time when you're being introduced to all of these groovy new things, then all of a sudden it's like, well, pick one. And not giving people enough time to really explore and see what it is they do like and mix things and putting things, siloing things in a departmemnt and saying, well, this has to do with this and not these other things. When the truth is the most interesting things I think are mixing, are kind of crossing disciplines. I think that's where the fertility is. That's where the juiciness is, the space between the connections, that are made between. Um, and I feel like universities don't allow people to do that enough.
[00:56:56] I actually had a multi-disciplinary degree when I was, and I had an interdisciplinary degree where people were like, this is bullshit, your degree is bullshit, but it's the only way I could get through. Because I just felt like I was a printmaker but I had always taken all these other classes and I was like, I don't, I don't want to choose.
[00:57:15] I really don't want to choose. I think it's unfair. I don't like it. I want to be able to do what I want to do. And they go, okay, here's what you could do.
[00:57:22] Lacey: Yeah, I think you have to just like call it a new name and people will respect you or something. I don't know, but there's a way around it for sure.
[00:57:33] golden: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I did want to tell you too about, in terms of like another space that I'm trying to work in right now, which is like a, not a physical space and not a meeting space, but it is kind of a... another kind of thing, but that is, um, a volume of, a compilation of kind of writings and poetry and affirmations, and really whatever I want, artwork , prayers, from queer trans people of color who were practicing some type of harm reduction or recovery outside of a 12 step model.
[00:58:06] Right now I'm working on an anthology of writings and things like that from people and compiling them. And I'm really excited to put that out too because I think that just from the things I've already read, it's just like, this is what I suspected- that people are just using so many different kinds of things.
[00:58:23] Like the paths are so varied. I think I just want people to see, you know, and read. And, and have this kind of evidence almost and I think it's always so beautiful to me when I hear what other people are doing for their own recovery. I'm like, Oh yes, yes. That's beautiful. You know, it's not something that I do, but that's beautiful.
[00:58:43] That's gorgeous, that makes sense. You know, it's powerful. And I think, um, Yeah. I mean, what's your program looking like these days?
[00:58:51] Lacey: I actually... you kind of referenced it. I'm in Recovery Dharma, or I'm actually on the fucking board of Recovery Dharma because when I do, when I get excited about something, I'm like, ah, I gotta do it like fully, like there's no little bit, there's all of it.
[00:59:07] Um, but yeah, I think, I do like it for some... the reasons I like it are it isn't, you know, like some of the things you talked about... there's no identifying as a certain way. It's um, you do have many people. It is primarily white, that's for sure. But there are a lot of different backgrounds and understandings and experiences with addiction that are coming into the room and it's, um, It's loving and empowering, and it allows you to take what you want and it empowers you to go out and find what you need.
[00:59:47] And it's just been a wonderful space for me. I felt very safe in it when I first found it. So, um, yeah, I use that as my as my community, my sangha, I guess, is what we would call it. Um, and the meditation practice has really worked for me. It's pretty magical. And I think being physical has really helped my recovery kind of that somatic therapy idea of getting back into my body.
[01:00:19] I think part of my recovery is speaking to people like you and connecting with people through this podcast and, you know, finding that inspiration, you know of ...there was a couple of things you said in this that just lit me write up and I will be writing down and listening to, because, you know, I have doubts all the time about this shit that I do.
[01:00:40] It's exhausting sometimes. But it it's like I look for those signs of the universe and you gave me one tonight. So it's, it's that. It's kind of trusting my intuition and my instincts. And doing like, you know, little like reaching to tarot and crystals and swishing myself with sage in the morning and all these things that like I've learned were silly, but that I find roots me in something that feels true to me. You know, now.
[01:01:15] golden: Definitely. Definitely. And, you know, I don't know about you, but I think it took me a while to understand what those things were. And I think I'm still understanding what they are. I think every year... usually I write every year about what that year in my path has been like. And every year I suspect that my program will enhance, it will change, it will be doing different things because I'm changing and I'm growing too. And what works now may not work as well later, or other things might come into my kind of purview that I didn't didn't understand before, or I wasn't aware of. Um, or that I can access in a different way later that just right now, just seems like not something I can do or that wouldn't work for me.
[01:02:01] So I don't know about you, but yeah, I think it's something that, again, it's that, that time, that time and that space to be able to explore and to grow and to find out. Find out what works. And I'm kind of surprised I never saw you. I used to live in New York and I would go to Recovery Dharma meetings.
[01:02:16] Lacey: Which meeting did you go to?
[01:02:18] golden: I used to go to... now I'll say this. I didn't go to them always super regularly, but I used to go to one that was like in Manhattan. At a temple... um, on the second floor of a building and a guy named Adam ran it. I would go to a meeting with that guy. Ran it. He also ran one that was at the LGBT center.
[01:02:40] I feel like Tuesdays or something.
[01:02:42] Lacey: Yes Tuesdays have been historically the LGBTQ. Yeah, at The Center.
[01:02:46] golden: And then I would go to one that was in Brooklyn, um, like Downtown. It was on the second floor of this place. And I feel like it was like a yoga studio.
[01:02:56] Lacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's recent. Fairly recent. Yeah.
[01:03:01] golden: I used to go to meetings at that one too.
[01:03:03]Lacey: Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, uh, I like it because it takes a lot of the people that not hate, not hate AA, not hate 12 step, but don't find 12 step helpful. And so it's, it's, it's a lot of people that kind of question things right? And like, find what's good for them and, and seek out that kind of alternate again, there's the "alternate".
[01:03:27] Um, but you know what I mean? Find the safe spaces for them. So those are the, you know, I love being with those people and having them in my recovery.
[01:03:36] golden: yeah. And I think, I think that there's something to having meditation be a part of that practice, um, I think is, is quite powerful. And I also thought that some of the, the stuff that they, some of the way they would include, for instance, um, the concept of kind of like impermanence and embracing impermanence, and one of the ways that people get kind of stuck and then need to end up coping is because of trying to resist the impermanence of things that things always change, trying to keep things happy, trying to make sad things go away when it's like life is happening and, um, and things are always changing and that can be painful. But if a person is aware and is practicing kind of awakening and how using, you know, tools kind of like Metta or just kind of sitting with oneself and letting whatever, is there be there without judgment. I mean, I think that that's just such a powerful practice of self-awareness, you know? It's, it's a powerful thing to have included in each time that a group meets together. I think, um, for recovery too. So I really would enjoy the meditations and I would go, yeah, like they had them online too.
[01:04:50] Lacey: Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's a lot online now, but it's um, yeah, the Dharma is... I mean, it's just, when I first encountered it, I was like, Oh, this is like made for an addiction experience. And I mean, the point is that everyone experiences addiction, not just people who may identify as addicts or, you know, of having addiction, like every single person, it's a human condition, addiction.
[01:05:21] golden: Right.
[01:05:22]Lacey: So, and it's for that, it's for what you're talking about, its because we want to escape displeasure or, you know, being uncomfortable, discomfort. Um, so it's that escape all the time that brings you right back to the thing that is going to cause you the thing to make you feel that discomfort again.
[01:05:40] And. We as humans need to learn that we can sit through discomfort. Yeah, at first it was like a real practical application for me. And then, and the community was really empowering for me. And now it's, it's become part of my just path in life, the Dharma. So, yeah, it's a, I'm glad it exists.
[01:06:09] golden: Me too!
[01:06:10] Lacey: Which is yeah. Which is why I'm trying to, you know, that's why I'm working for it, basically. Is to, keep it going, make sure other people have access to it.
[01:06:21] golden: Definitely. Definitely. I love that it exists. I feel like I'm always excited to hear about different programs and I think that there are strengths to a lot of different programs and, um, yeah, Refuge is one of the ones that I've, I've probably had the side.. I'd say SMART and Refuge are...
[01:06:37]Lacey: Recovery Dharma, because Refuge is like,
[01:06:43]golden: Oh, Oh shit, right, I keep forgetting. Sorry. You know, that's funny because the last time I went, that was right. I understand that. That there's a separation there.
[01:06:50] Absolutely. Thank you for reminding me. But yeah. Yeah, no, I get super excited when I hear about other programs and just like, yeah, what's it about, you know. I think one of the things I really liked about SMART too, was that, and I think that Recovery Dharma is like this too in that, um, it's not really about one type of attachment to something. You know, SMART is very much like, Oh, like I'd be in a meeting it'd be like, someone in there has an unhealthy relationship with porongraphy. Someone in there is cutting themselves, someone in there as an unhealthy relationship with food, someone in there as an unhealthy relationship with money, an unhealthy relationship with gambling. Someone there is a compulsive liar, you know, I'm in there because I'm working on not drinking, you know? And the beautiful thing was that it was like, one that everybody probably could be in those meetings, everybody in the whole world could be in one of those meetings and think of something in their life that is not quite balanced that they would like to work on.
[01:07:53] Um, and that two, even though we were all struggling with different things, I would learn a lot from people. I'd be like, wow. Huh. That's not my thing, but what they're bringing to that, how they're transforming that is something, is medicine I can use. Is something that I can learn from is it's, um, an example for me, or like the courage that they're just dead on facing this, this really steep challenge within their life.
[01:08:20] Even though it's not my challenge, its quite beautiful and quite valorous. And I, I was very appreciative of getting to share space in the room. Whereas I feel like when it's a singular thing and it's like, we're all in here because we are here for this singular thing. It almost makes it seem like it's like special or something.
[01:08:36] When actually I think that that kind of coping with something is not that special. It's like for something that most people do, you know, we all do it different ways, but yeah, most people are trying to, you know, manage their pain, manage their suffering somehow. And there's no one I know who couldn't stand to think a little bit longer about how they could reduce harm in their life from some relationship, some substance, some pattern of behavior, or thought that's within them. It's, it's just kind of a universal thing actually. And it's not really, you know, necessarily about any particular way of doing it. It's just kind of pain is, is a part of life. And how do we deal with it?
[01:09:27] Lacey: Yeah, and I, and I'd like it if you could share more about SMART Recovery cause that's another episode I want to do, just so people know what they can expect, if they go to a SMART meeting.
[01:09:41] golden: Yeah SMART Is cool because...I'm not a SMART ambassador or anything like that, but, um, and again, I don't think that ...one thing that I always appreciated, because I did not have SMART until I moved to New York, I didn't have any access to SMART meetings. I don't think that they're, I think they're even less common than Recovery Dharma meetings actually, generally speaking, like in real life ones are not super common, particularly outside of a treatment center setting.
[01:10:06] So, SMART is like... one of the things I really liked about it was that it was kind of like, Oh, Hey. Cool, welcome. If you... harm reduction is totally a part of it. So if you're coming to this meeting and you still drInk or still do whatever it is, great, you know, that's fine. Um, uh, you should use what works for you in this program.
[01:10:28] Anything that doesn't work for you in this program? Um, it's okay whatever doesn't work. Use what works for you and we wish you well, um, and finding whatever works completely for you. So one, the pressure that it needed to work for you is not, was never there for me, you know? Um, because that was just kind of explicitly said, like, this is just, these are tools that, um, that are kind of like evidence-based tools.
[01:10:53] And they use a lot of tools from things like motivational interviewing, um, cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavior therapy. There's a lot of these exercises that they use from different. Um, Different kind of frameworks and stuff like that within the program. But basically if you go to a SMART meeting, you're gonna come in, they're going to say, Oh yes, you know, welcome to the meeting, if you're using another program, when you're coming to this meeting, great! This is not a program you have to attend for your entire life, you're not making a lifelong commitment. We trust you to make the decision that's best for you basically. But welcome! Then you go around and basically say, you know how things are going for you, kind of in a synopsis style, so you say your name, your pronouns, how things are going for you with your thing that you're coming in with that week.
[01:11:39] And then there's actually, as opposed to some other programs, there's actually a period of about 10 minutes of like where you can respond to other people explicitly if you'd like. And then after that, usually there's you do a bit of like exercise work. Like you take a practice from the book. And the book is not kind of a Holy Tome .
[01:11:58] They're like anything that we put in here, we think it works, we're only using, evidence-based kind of, tools. However, if we find out better tools or like this program is subject to change, it is not set in stone. We are, this thing will change most likely, but this is what we're doing right now.
[01:12:19] They usually take an activity from the book. You do it together, usually in small groups and you come back together and talk about it. And then you close out with any kind of, you know, burning... anybody has anything to say about, you know, anything else for you, all the part. And then. You know, it's kind of standard pass the hat and then the meeting is over.
[01:12:37] And, um, I really liked the, just attitude of the whole thing where it's just like, you're not signing up for life. This is not about you having a disease. This is not about you being broken. This is about the tools that you do have. And this is about just kind of meeting yourself where you are. They actually discourage people using the terms, alcoholic or addict.
[01:12:57] They're just like, we don't find that that's helpful for people to identify with that. As much as just to kind of come in and, and take a look at, you know, what, who you are and what you're dealing with. So it's, it's like its own little own world. Um, and I've really enjoyed the smart meetings I've been to if you take out all the other humans in meetings. I like the, the meetings but I've never particuraly cared for.... I like the program, but with meetings are always a different issue. It's like, who's showing up for the meeting is separate from what the program is about. I've had a problem with some of the meetings. I used to go to a great meeting.
[01:13:33] My only home group I've ever had was at The Center. Oh, the LGBT center on Thursday is a SMART recovery meeting, but Oh God. Even in that meeting, I just was like, I'm going to strangle some of these people in here. I can't take it, you know, but the program itself, I actually still use the workbook now on my own.
[01:13:52] I'll go through and like do some of this stuff where I know even like, they'll be like, Oh, the way you talk to yourself is super important. So like, there's like, you know, practices they have for like, Looking at your self-talk and things like that. It's just very practical and it's kind of like, here's some tools you can use and,you know, use what works for you.
[01:14:12] We trust that you will do what is best for you. Which I think is just such a radical way of putting it, that kind of extending trust to people who are using the program. Instead of saying, you must use it. If you don't, you will fail. And if you don't use the way we say, you will fail. And if you stop coming to this meeting, you will fail.
[01:14:28] Lacey: Yeah.
[01:14:29] golden: It's like, naaa, you can come. Come or don't come. It's up to you. We trust you to make the decision you need to do. Use the program or don't we trust you to make the decision that's right for you. You are the person who is sovereign in this situation. We wish you well! I'm like, okay, I can work with that.
[01:14:44] Lacey: No, I think that trust.... I mean, yeah, I think it's like anywhere. If you show trust and respect, it's also respect, right? If you say, I trust you to make the... to know what's best for you, that's respect. And when you don't respect someone that just adds on to the shame and that shame is causing the harm to begin with.
[01:15:04] So I think a program that is grounded in respect is going to be hugely helpful. And jeez, it's like a brand new idea.
[01:15:17] golden: It's revolutionary. Yeah it really is. It really is.
[01:15:24] Lacey: Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right. Well, I, do you have anything else you want to share?
[01:15:31] golden: Oh, let's see. Okay. I will like to read just like a page from one of my, um, one of my books about recovery and this one was from almost seven years. So I wrote it last year. Cause I'll be almost eight years this summer, if I can make it through this election...
[01:15:52] Lacey: What's the name of ...the it's from one of your zines?
[01:15:55]golden: Yeah. And Now My Watch Begins Almost Seven Years of Sobriety My Way. So I would have written it sometime around this time last year. Um, okay. So the first... I'll just read through it and then, um, yeah,"' So I know only, like, five Indians in our whole tribe who never drunk alcohol.
[01:16:13] And my grandmother was one of them. Drinking would shut down my seeing and my hearing and my feeling, she used to say. Why in the world would I want to be in the world if I couldn't touch it with all of my senses intact?' And that's a quote by Sherman Alexie from the Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian.
[01:16:29] And the next quote is 'The real criminal is the white man who poses as a liberal, the political hypocrite. And it is these legal crooks, posing as our friends or forcing us into a life of crime and using us to spread the white man's evil vices among their own people. You are not a drug addict accidentally.
[01:16:47] Why the white man maneuvers you into drug addiction and there is nothing about your condition here in America that is an accident.' "And that's a quote from Malcolm X. I go into writing that addiction.... there's these sections in this zine ...that "Addiction as a tool of colonialism and slow genocide. There's a long, sordid history in this country of planting illegal substances in Black and Native communities for purposes of making them vulnerable, undermining community health and self-determination. Purposes of dehumanization and then using people's additions to these substances as proof of white supremacist or colonial necessity or essential goodness, and ultimately eliminating those people. There's a very clear, documented history of framing white people who struggle with substance abuse as deserving of compassion and capable of change, and of casting Black and Native people who become addicted as irredeemable menaces to society.
[01:17:43] The mechanisms of colonialism have, throughout history, placed, and even manufactured, mood altering substances in communities, only to then point to the unimaginably destructive epidemics of addiction among those communities as personal and community level failures, without any hint of accountability or repair.
[01:18:02] Many of the drug laws in this country were created in direct reaction to Black and Native peoples much stereotyped use, including reefer madness, even as white folks use at similar or higher rates. And as a queer person, I see how queers are at a much higher risk for substance abuse than the rest of the population and how we are targeted in certain ways by the corporate advertisements who despise us and care nothing for us, but never somehow managed to miss out on a pride-based marketing opportunity.
[01:18:27] And how many of us use substances to manage the stress of living in our deeply homophobic society. Part of my choice to reduce the harm of substances in my life is to resist the seeds of self and community hatred constantly planted it in my consciousness every day, day after day in ways, subtle, overt, and unconscious by these forces of destruction who wish to see my and my Black, queer, low-income, and genderqueer communities sink quietly into the earth.
[01:18:58] For as long as I'm able, I will commit myself to not furthering harm towards myself and my community through substance-adled actions. I will stay awake and alert for as long as I can, knowing what Audrey Lorde said, ' we were never meant to survive.'"
[01:19:15] That's it.
[01:19:16] Lacey: Thank you. Thank you. That's beautiful. I recommend everybody go out and get it and I will link to it.
[01:19:26] golden: Uh, thank you for having this podcast. I really have enjoyed the episodes that I listened to and I think it's just, yeah. Such a great format and, um, yeah, I just think the more exposure to the ideas of, of yourself and the people that you choose to bring on here, it's really important, you know?
[01:19:44] Lacey: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm really grateful to be able to do it and, and to meet people like you. So, um, and any zine that has people sweeping off your table of goods is awesome! Like, obviously fucking awesome.
[01:20:05] golden: When that shit happened, I was like, what the fuck?
[01:20:08] Lacey: I mean, it's terrible. It's, let's be real, that's violence, but it also means you've got something really good in your hands.
[01:20:21] golden: Oh god. Can you imagine just being like, I don't agree with your shit I'm just gonna...
[01:20:29] Lacey: Yes, yes I can. Because we're seeing it play out all over the country.
[01:20:33] golden: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Definitely.
[01:20:37] Lacey: All right, that's it for this week. Thanks for hanging out with golden and I, you can find them on Instagram at @blackqueertransrecovery, also @D.S.press, and you can buy their amazing zines, which I highly recommend at their Etsy shop, which is, I will link to it, the full Etsy address in the show notes, as well as everything else I'm mentioning here, but if you Google "DS Press Etsy" you will find it. Also, I highly recommend supporting the work that Golden's doing, creating meetings for Black queer trans people, uh, by sending them money at their Venmo is @golden-Collier, C O L L I E R. And their cash app handle is $goldenBrowne, and Browne has an E at the end, which I love to see.
[01:21:30] And us! Sober Company, you can find us on Instagram at, @ sobercopodcast. Our website is sober.company and that's it. Hang in there, folks we're getting through and, um, yeah, take care of yourselves still. I, I just haven't workshopped this tagline, even though it's been up a full fucking year, but we're getting there.
[01:21:51] I hope we've been some good company for you this week. Take care of yourself. Bye.